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And, as always the best way to keep abreast of this series and everything else we do here at the Center is to join our mailing list. And again, it survives, I think, because of that state support for the better part of 2,000 years. A lot of Christianity, as you rightly point out, I mean, it was an Eastern phenomenon, all over the eastern Mediterranean. CHARLES STANG: I do, too. The pagan continuity hypothesis theorizes that when Christianity arrived in Greece around AD 49, it didn't suddenly replace the existing religion. I'm not. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. And nor did we think that a sanctuary would be one of the first things that we construct. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. Maybe for those facing the end of life. This event is entitled, Psychedelics, The Ancient Religion With No Name? That is my dog Xena. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? I mean, so it was Greek. And there were moments when the sunlight would just break through. They minimized or completely removed the Jewish debates found in the New Testament, and they took on a style that was more palatable to the wider pagan world. Maybe there's some residual fear that's been built up in me. Thank you, sir. Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. And Brian, once again, thank you so much. And if there's historical precedent for it, all the more so. Is there a smoking gun? And so part of what it means to be a priest or a minister or a rabbi is to sit with the dying and the dead. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving And I offer psychedelics as one of those archaic techniques of ecstasy that seems to have been relevant and meaningful to our ancestors. All that will be announced through our mailing list. But if the original Eucharist were psychedelic, or even if there were significant numbers of early Christians using psychedelics like sacrament, I would expect the representatives of orthodox, institutional Christianity to rail against it. would certainly appreciate. Even a little bit before Gobekli Tepe, there was another site unearthed relatively recently in Israel, at the Rakefet cave. If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. And I'm trying to reconcile that. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. I think the wine certainly does. And I did not dare. Is taking all these disciplines, whether it's your discipline or archaeochemistry or hard core botany, biology, even psychopharmacology, putting it all together and taking a look at this mystery, this puzzle, using the lens of psychedelics as a lens, really, to investigate not just the past but the future and the mystery of human consciousness. So I think this was a minority of early Christians. I will ask Brian to describe how he came to write this remarkable book, and the years of sleuthing and studying that went into it. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. Thank you. To be a Catholic is to believe that you are literally consuming the blood of Christ to become Christ. 474, ?] Amongst all the mystery religions, Eleusis survives. It was one of the early write-ups of the psilocybin studies coming out of Johns Hopkins. But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. It's not to say that there isn't evidence from Alexandria or Antioch. In the afterword, you champion the fact that we stand on the cusp of a new era of psychedelics precisely because they can be synthesized and administered safely in pill form, back to The Economist article "The God Pill". Not in every single case, obviously. The continuity hypothesis of dreams suggests that the content of dreams are largely continuous with waking concepts and concerns of the dreamer. This time around, we have a very special edition featuring Dr. Mark Plotkin and Brian C . Like in Israel. Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. Like the wedding at Cana, which my synopsis of that event is a drunkard getting a bunch of drunk people even more drunk. So the closer we get to the modern period, we're starting to find beer, wine mixed with interesting things. Brian's thesis, that of the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, was explored by Alexander Hislop in his "The Two Babylons", 1853, as a Protestant treatise in the spirit of Martin Luther as Alexander too interjects the Elusinian Mysteries. But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. And we know the mysteries were there. Brian launched the instant bestseller on the Joe Rogan Experience, and has now appeared on CNN, NPR, Sirius XM, Goop-- I don't even know what that is-- and The Weekly Dish with Andrew Sullivan. Because they talk about everything else that they take issue with. I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. CHARLES STANG: I have one more question about the pre-Christian story, and that has to do with that the other mystery religion you give such attention to. Where you find the grain, you may have found ergot. And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. First I'll give the floor to Brian to walk us into this remarkable book of his and the years of hard work that went into it, what drove him to do this. So how to put this? And it was their claim that when the hymn to Demeter, one of these ancient records that records, in some form, the proto-recipe for this kykeon potion, which I call like a primitive beer, in the hymn to Demeter, they talk about ingredients like barley, water, and mint. I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. Now, here's-- let's tack away from hard, scientific, archaeobotanical evidence for a moment. Others find it in different ways, but the common denominator seems to be one of these really well-curated near-death experiences. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. Yeah. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. But maybe you could just say something about this community in Catalonia. And for some reason, I mean, I'd read that two or three times as an undergrad and just glossed over that line. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. I expect we will find it. And why, if you're right that the church has succeeded in suppressing a psychedelic sacrament and has been peddling instead, what you call a placebo, and that it has exercised a monstrous campaign of persecution against plant medicine and the women who have kept its knowledge alive, why are you still attached to this tradition? So the Greek god of wine, intoxication. So I went fully down the rabbit hole. But I mentioned that we've become friends because it is the prerogative of friends to ask hard questions. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. Then there's what were the earliest Christians doing with the Eucharist. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? Are they rolling their eyes, or are you getting sort of secretive knowing nods of agreement? #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More by The Tim Ferriss Show The pagan continuity hypothesis at the heart of this book made sense to me. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. Those of you who don't know his name, he's a professor at the University of Amsterdam, an expert in Western esotericism. These mysteries had at their center a sacrament called kykeon, which offered a vision of the mysteries of life and death. 13,000 years old. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. It's not the case in the second century. I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity. And this is what I present to the world. And her answer was that they'd all been cleaned or treated for conservation purposes. They did not. The continuity between pagan and Christian cult nearby the archaeological area of Naquane in Capo di Ponte. CHARLES STANG: So in some sense, you're feeling almost envy for the experiences on psychedelics, which is to say you've never experienced the indwelling of Christ or the immediate knowledge of your immortality in the sacrament. Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. The answer seems to be connected to psychedelic drugs. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. Now, I have no idea where it goes from here, or if I'll take it myself. Then what was the Gospel of John, how did it interpret the Eucharist and market it, and so on. Richard Evans Schultes and the Search for Ayahuasca 17 days ago Plants of the Gods: S3E10. We have other textual evidence. But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. It tested positive for the microscopic remains of beer and also ergot, exactly the hypothesis that had been put forward in 1978 by the disgraced professor across town from you, Carl Ruck, who's now 85 years old, by the way. And so I can see psychedelics being some kind of extra sacramental ministry that potentially could ease people at the end of life. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? Now you're a good sport, Brian. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. Brought to you by Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. The actual key that I found time and again in looking at this literature and the data is what seems to be happening here is the cultivation of a near-death experience. Reviewed in the United States on January 29, 2023 There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. These Native American church and the UDV, both some syncretic form of Christianity. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. In 1950, Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote " The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity " which describes the continuity from the Pagan, pre-Christian world to what would become early Christianity in the decades and centuries before Jesus Religion & Mystical Experiences, Wine He's the god of wine. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. And keep in mind that we'll drop down into any one of these points more deeply. Where are the drugs? So at the very-- after the first half of the book is over, there's an epilogue, and I say, OK, here's the evidence. I'd never thought before about how Christianity developed as an organized religion in the centuries after Jesus' murder. And I think oversight also comes in handy within organized religion. So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. Here's your Western Eleusis. And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. CHARLES STANG: Thank you, Brian. And so the big hunt for me was trying to find some of those psychedelic bits. You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. Because again, when I read the clinical literature, I'm reading things that look like mystical experiences, or that at least at least sound like them. And now we have a working hypothesis and some data to suggest where we might be looking. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More You're not confident that the pope is suddenly going to issue an encyclical. Psychedelics are a lens to investigate this stuff. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? And the second act, the same, but for what you call paleo-Christianity, the evidence for your suspicion that the Eucharist was originally a psychedelic sacrament. So let's start, then, the first act. Including, all the way back to Gobekli Tepe, which is why I mentioned that when we first started chatting. And she happened to find it on psilocybin. What is its connection to Eleusis? And what does this earliest history tell us about the earliest evidence for an ancient psychedelic religion? I took this to Greg [? But clearly, when you're thinking about ancient Egypt or elsewhere, there's definitely a funerary tradition. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. 48:01 Brian's psychedelic experiences . And I've listened to the volunteers who've gone through these experiences. They were relevant to me in going down this rabbit hole. Although she's open to testing, there was nothing there. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. Maybe I have that wrong. The Tim Ferriss Show. I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. So Brian, welcome. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . Several theories address the issue of the origin of the Romanians.The Romanian language descends from the Vulgar Latin dialects spoken in the Roman provinces north of the "Jireek Line" (a proposed notional line separating the predominantly Latin-speaking territories from the Greek-speaking lands in Southeastern Europe) in Late Antiquity.The theory of Daco-Roman continuity argues that the . Up until that point I really had very little knowledge of psychedelics, personal or literary or otherwise. They found a tiny chalice this big, dated to the second century BC. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. Lots of Greek artifacts, lots of Greek signifiers. And I want to say to those who are still assembled here that I'm terribly sorry that we can't get to all your questions. But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? 7:30 The three pillars to the work: the Eucharist as a continuation of the pharmako and Dionysian mysteries; the Pagan continuity theory; and the idea that through the mysteries "We can die before we die so that when we die we do not die" 13:00 What does "blood of Christ" actually mean; the implied and literal cannibalism There aren't any churches or basilicas, right, in the first three centuries, in this era we're calling paleo-Christianity. And I think that we would behoove ourselves to incorporate, resuscitate, maybe, some of those techniques that seem to have been employed by the Greeks at Eleusis or by the Dionysians or some of these earliest Christians. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I want to thank you for your time. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. And at some point in my narrative, I do include mention of Gobekli Tepe, for example, which is essentially twice the age of Stonehenge. I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. What was the wine in the early Eucharist? I think the only big question is what the exact relationship was from a place like that over to Eleusis. And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. And I want to-- just like you have this hard evidence from Catalonia, then the question is how to interpret it. We have some inscriptions. The big question is, did any of these recipes, did any of this wine spiking actually make its way into some paleo-Christian ceremony. And so that's what motivated my search here. OK. Now let's pan back because, we have-- I want to wrap up my interrogation of you, which I've been pressing you, but I feel as if perhaps people joining me think I'm hostile to this hypothesis. That there is no hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data for spiked beer, spiked wine. Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead. Maybe there's a spark of the divine within. Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. And I got to say, there's not a heck of a lot of eye rolling, assuming people read my afterword and try to see how careful I am about delineating what is knowable and what is not and what this means for the future of religion. A rebirth into what? Again, if you're attracted to psychedelics, it's kind of an extreme thing, right? I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . And in the ancient world, wine was routinely referred to as a [SPEAKING GREEK], which is the Greek word for drug.