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I dont see you behaving as a bully. That is why we are doing our darndest to look at these issues and try to find a bridge. As I think youre hinting here, a certain amount of theology (what proportion, I dont know) is in reality nothing more than a minority social science. 14 William Lane Craig LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? I actually returned here wondering if you would even let my comment stand, considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine! Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. Craig Keener 25. Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out @ Daisy: So many have been through one form of abuse or another and have needs that we should allow for, beyond social norms. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. I find that to be an amazing God thing. I had no intention of saying that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. I intended to contrast believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their reading of Scripture, and believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their own counsel, on what they *feel* is true. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. 1. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. NEVER allow them an unchallenged presumption. CALVIN! Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. Im not always that good at explaining things well. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. I have not had that experience. When we dont like what someone teaches we try to make them a non Christian so we dont have to love them. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . TULIP stands for total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible . We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. He said he found comfort from it. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. Because their first and most precious assumption is that truth is forever beyond any human agency. If I did that, I would lose the single greatest tool I have for refining my ideas: discussion, debate, disagreement (three ds). However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom Study some good books that present the non-Calvinist point of view. In his opening chapter, he discussed an incident (this has happened more than once) in which a Baylor student, who had attended the church of a well known northern Calvinist, informed Olson that Olson was not a Christian. But the rest of the bad stuff? I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. (I mean, Star Trek?). No one is trying to convince him otherwise. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. I sure love the practical side of things. I will pray for him a lot in the coming days! Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? I trust him because I understand his loving nature. Ever. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. Can they wrestle with it on their own? It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. So far, we both agree. Dee, your post brought back child hood memories of Boston. Quotes about calvinism But, within the week, I opened my Bible and read 1John1 and knew it was speaking about me. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. But are *we* the measure of truth? Olson has occasionally been accused of heresy for not adheringto the current YRR view of doctrine. When I correct someone, mostly my goal is to show them that the ones who taught them this horrible doctrine are the outsiders with fringe beliefs, not them. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Sois that what we are saying? Weeps with you. There are many bite marks on my tongue. Are they involved in a joint venture? But there are reasons not to make it an issue. Editors Note: The list is not meant to be exhaustive and will be updated periodically. He should be a great example to you. Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. . And its complicated by the same problem that David came up against (and I quote the Psalm not because Im trying to educated everyone but because it puts it so well): If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were rising against me, I could hide. There are anti-Calvinists with websites who have examples, quotes taken from books by pro-Calvinists where the pro-C equates Cal to the Gospel itself, their point being to hint that anyone not embracing Cal is not a Christian, then you have the Cals who come right out and say it. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Entropy setting in over time? If it does, then Im find with that. There is too much work to be done. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. Here is my point as a non-theology major. We are also workers. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. How dare he write such a long work! You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. I really did exercise power when I tossed that piece of chalk; God did not throw it for me. Inevitably, then, youll sometimes find restless young men who want to make a name for themselves (and who hasnt been there) (other than restless young women) will take the idea and make it a point of honour to run as far as they can with it. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? @ Julie Anne: . Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. Good point. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. . Association of Related Churches Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. When I look at myself, I think of my own salvation from a TULIP perspective. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. I am not trying to argue doctrine, because that is not my or anyone elses business here. 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. Hes describing man, not God. We often find it difficult to tolerate uncertainty, so we do anything to avoid that. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. We are very clear that we do not see men as the only abusers nor abuse inherently a gender issue. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. In spite of the fact that Sproul and Piper have said such things, i still consider them Christians. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. I just hope and pray that you can see this. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. You can find this sort of material by googling for it. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. And I get better at flying (so to speak). Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. ). How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. Bummer. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. Dark times. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. He is also an ordained Baptist minister. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. For some time now, my blog posts have pursued an inquiry of how non-Calvinists and Calvinists among Southern Baptists have come to be involved in a public conversation on their respective positions. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. As Ive said on older threads, back when I was considering becoming a Calvinist and began lurking at their forums and perusing their sites, and I began e mailing them asking them if they could explain Calvinism for me and clear up some confusion I had, this happened a lot. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. Rather, it is a "revival" of sortsa revival of traditional, "old" Calvinism.The movement is sweeping through American evangelical churches of all denominations, attracting young people from Free Church, Episcopal, Independent, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches alike. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Lin wrote: Before you do, let me ask: would you take the same tone with another man, and do you believe your words honor God? Each Christmas, I am thankful that God works in mysterious ways. Oy. Oy. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her.